Kopitiam Talk Episode 1: Where should I start my Pupillage at? Big or Small Firms

You would probably be reading this blog because Weera coaxed you to, or maybe you just stumble upon this article while looking to get some insights on where to get your chambering done after recently passing CLP (big congrats to those Warriors who passed or managed to get conditional passes!). But most likely you would be here because you got clickbaited to see what BrainyLaw (or just Weera & Co) is up to this time around.

Fret not, whatever your reason may be for reading this article, it aims to serve as a fun read for readers to get an insight to what it’s like to work in the 4 different types of law firms, differentiated this time around by the size of such law firms. We have 7 lawyers/pupils from Sole Prop, Small, Medium & Big Firms to light up the tunnels for the readers and help in making a decision on the type of firms to chamber at spend your next nine months at and hopefully more.

Your Marvel Heroes Legal Heroes this month at BrainyLaw are:

1. Yeoh Kai Shin, one half of Brainylaw and also the driving force behind MalaysianLitigator.com from Thomas Philip;
2. Shammie Wong, from Zaid Ibrahim & Co (ZICO);
3. Goh Loh Boon, from Tzai Mun & Co;
4. Daphne Rethual;
5. Francis Anthony;
6. Ivan Fredric Yun, from Chooi & Company + Cheang & Ariff (CCA); and
7. Myself, Weera Premananda @ Soon Jin Xue, from Justin Faye & Partners (JFP)

That being said, the views presented by the contributors may or may not give a full representation of the each type of law firms. A Porsche Cayman may be Weera’s ride of dreams, but Kai Shin’s version of a Taxi for life.

Each contributors were given 4 sets of question to revolve their answers on. As my master who is most likely not gonna read this always said to me, keep things concise to gets your message across. Therefore, that’s what I’ll aim to do here for this Roundtable Discussion.

It’s gonna be a 7-way discussion. Hold tight and don’t get blown away.

Question 1: How is the experience of working in your firm? In terms of workload, environment, the people and the learning experience?
Ivan:

I decided to return back to Malaysia after gaining a few years of working experience in the U.K., thinking that a Big Law firm, also known as a megafirm is the holy grail, the house of Targaryen or even Gryffindor. Working in a big law firm is definitely a unique experience but it all boils back down to the bread and butter of law, which I shall break it down in 4 headings. Note: I am doing pure litigation (but occasionally a little conveyancing and corporate) –

• Workload – The stigma of “working long nights, never seeing friends and family, becoming exhausted” varies. Although it was not uncommon to work long hours and even during the weekends, it depends on how much you want to learn within the 9 months of pupillage. My Master once told me to put my head down and plow through obligations (bundling, printing etc.) even though they are painfully boring and mundane. Through that, I now learn how to utilize my time fully, efficiently and methodically to barrel through the workload. Meeting datelines can be challenging but give yourself sufficient cushion to go back to your seniors with questions and issues, don’t ask for extensions! As a pupil, you have yet to build up trust capital with your colleagues; therefore it’s important to build that trust before you ask for extensions. My day to day routine: Wake up at 5:45 AM every morning, hit the gym, shower, get into office by 8:45 AM, and work till average 9-11 PM, eat half-boiled eggs and sleep. Have a plan, execute it, and stay consistent to it!
• Environment –Be prepared for high expectations which will distinct you and your fellow pupils very quickly. Big law firms are fast-paced, challenging and rewarding. While you may not have received adequate practical training in law school, Big Law Firms will expect you to learn very quickly. I personally enjoy a fast-paced work environment as it keeps me engaged, increases my focus, and maximizes my efficiency. The initial 3 months honestly felt like 1 month to me. The day passes by quickly that I wish I had 109342834 hours in a day and 10 extra days in between Saturday and Sunday. There is also a higher chance of office drama (real life Suits, how exciting) but don’t get involved or you’ll be the next Louis Litt without a Donna.
• People – Big law firms do also offer an extensive support staff that makes your job easier. Along with the administrative support, you can also expect in-house IT, file clerks, data entry clerks, paralegals, librarians, printing staffs, secretaries and a tea-lady. They’re important as they help us to get so much more accomplished in much lesser time. You’ll also run into a lot of people with whom you have no common ground – accept this as a fact and move on by cultivating relationships with those people you best get along. I was fortunate to work for fantastic partners and associates who never yell, scream, insult, or send nasty emails. You’ll then find a mentor whom you can rely on for any help in generally and get yourself situated in the firm, such as how to undertake assignments, preference of partners in how they like their work done, which types of activities at the firm you should partake in. A good mentor will advocate for you both in and outside the firm, and will share with you his career advice whether you stay at the firm or move on. Lastly, don’t forget your pupil mates who will be there to encourage, motivate and help you in times of need. I was fortunate to find a group that became family to me. I guess being at the bottom of the food chain / ladder isn’t that bad after all?!
• Learning experience – Develop a thick skin! (MUKA TEMBOK BESI!) I ran into a situation where everything was confusing at first, but it gets better and more interesting through the months. Learning to be proactive and be self-sufficient enhances the learning experience. Initially, I felt that I could take on the world with my legal wizardry after passing Bar School. Well, truthfully, I didn’t know jack when I started my pupillage #goodjobivan. The vast majority of what my learning experience was absorbed from the job that I was given. You’ll be given assignments (if not, go ask for work), concerning matters that appear arcane and incomprehensible – No tutorials, no lecturers, no homework. You’ll learn primarily by just doing. I was handed all sorts of assignments that I sometimes have no absolute clue on how to complete. Then, I knew that the onus was on me to ask my colleagues and friends for examples, speak with my mentors, and undertake my own research to get the job done. Learn from everyone you work with. The sink or swim policy is in play and you’ll have to navigate these choppy waters. Also to note, don’t let criticisms intimidate or frazzle you. Rather stand your ground, calmly explain why you made a mistake, and ask follow-up clarification questions so you can rectify your errors.

Kai Shin:

Coming into a medium sized firm from a small one (internship), the first thing I noticed was the vastness and availability of resources compared to my previous stint at the smaller firm. The firm had a huge selection of practitioner’s text, Malal’s, Halbury’s etc. There are a good number of secretaries, paralegals and clerks too ready to assist at any time, which is something I am extremely grateful for and will never take for granted.

However, I think as far as workload and work life balance goes, it is pretty much the same for many other litigation firms, I usually come in early at 8.30am and leave work around 7.30pm – 8pm every day, and I have to come in on weekends too most of the time.

As for the office culture, the people are generally very warm and friendly.

The pupillage program is very much a swim at the deep end of the Pacific Ocean, with no hand to hold and no sampan for you to cruise on. You need to be aggressive and resourceful if you want to survive, and also be willing to take on a little mental beating. But you’ll be fine.

Shammie:

My experience working at ZICOlaw has been really great. At ZICOlaw, we have this unspoken rule where every piece of work that comes into the Trainee Associate (“TA”) group email has to be taken up by a TA. I am lucky enough to have experienced my pupillage with selfless and helpful fellow TAs where we share our workload among ourselves. Of course we have to prioritize work given by our pupil master or the practice group we are in, but everybody helps out when they can.

I must say the people in ZICOlaw are really friendly. The Partners and Associates are really approachable and most of them practice an open-door policy where you can just walk in and have a chat if you are keen.

Daphne:

There are 2 partners, 4 Legal Associates in my firm and I’m the only pupil. We do Civil Litigation. I believe my workload is not the heaviest amongst pupils, the only times I had to stay in the office past 8 pm is when we have trial the next day and occasionally to do bundling for the seniors.

The seniors are generally willing to teach and provide feedback to my work especially if you ask. Sufficient guidance is provided, although I would be more than glad if my bosses agree to gets the Halsbury series. Bosses are extremely warm and approachable, humble and encouraging. My managing partner has an extremely sharp litigator mind and the other partner drafts well. I’m blessed to have bosses that excels in different ways that I can learn and observe from. The secretaries are highly reliable, all you need to do is pass the task to them and let them know when you need it completed/delivered, they will sort out their own load and get it done for you.

It might not be the most favourable or the happiest work place you can be in (trust me I’ve worked in at least 5 other companies/firms). But I appreciate the character-building it has done to me. I’ve been forced to learn how to be resilient and bounce back from whatever set backs I face at work, and figuring out the battles I should/shouldn’t fight. Having a bumpy start in your career only works to your advantage. 😉

On the learning experience, I believe I’ve been exposed to as much as a pupil can be in my firm. But in term of the the diversity in the areas of law and complexity of the files, I believe other firms may fare better.

Francis:

Well for me, i started my chambering period wayyyyyy before I filed my paper. Mind you, I’m doing 95% CONVEYANCING and 5% others. My firm practises a very slow and condusive environment, less stress and my boss rarely comes in. So far no complaints, just most of the days it can get tricky to handle tough clients.

Loh Boon:

First of all, I work in a sole proprietor firm with no support staff (yes, not even a clerk). All we have are my boss a.k.a my pupil master, myself and usually another one or two attachment student(s). As we don’t have many people to handle bulk work, the workload is always manageable which allows us to pay more attention to whatever we are working on for a better-quality work.

The working culture we have is a healthy one. No office politics, no working late and no working over weekends so far. Proper guidance is always given even though I was expected to be able to work independently and I have never been left alone to figure out the next steps on my own. We always recognize the importance of working as a team and not hiding any issues at work from each other.

Weera:

Being the only pupil working at a small firm (working for 2 partners) , I usually handle most of the ground work. In terms workload, I believe it would be the same as the mid and big sized firms. I would still have to stay late at night at the office and weekends when I’m so required. There are little to none office politics in my firm, as there’s only me and the 2 partners of the firm. I get to go solo hearing at the Industrial Court and Magistrates Court to the High Court, from various states namely KL, Shah Alam & Ipoh.

Question 2: What are the perks that you have working in your kind of firm?

Shammie:

At ZICOlaw, we have a structured Trainee Associate Programme run by the Trainee Associate Committee (“TAC”) which consist of a special committee of partners and also partners from Knowledge Management and Training.

Basically, what the TAC do is, they organize trainings for us and make sure that from the TA Programme, we get to learn the skills necessary to become good lawyers. We actually have training sessions at least once a week given by Partners and/or Senior Associates from the firm. I used to dread going to these sessions but in hindsight, they are really beneficial.

One of the perks of working in a big firm is the opportunity to work in practice groups that specializes in different areas of law. For me, the ultimate goal of pupillage is to find an area of law that piques my interest; a niche area of law that I could specialize in and to pursue in the long term and I am glad to say I’ve found mine.

Daphne:

Well, being the only pupil, the obvious perk is I get ALL the work, everything that the LAs need help with is an opportunity for me to learn something new. Yes I’m greedy that way. I want all opportunities to myself! On the flip side, you get ground work up down left right too. Some will need help with indexing, compiling authorities, carry their boxes, call court, call Insolvency etc.

Also, being in a small firm/a firm with only one pupil, the partners are well-informed of your development and they can afford to take more personal interest in your growth and customize the kind of exposure that they believe could be beneficial to a pupil.

Weera:

Perks for me in my firm includes the fact that I got a very spacious and cozy personal room as well as pay that commensurate my skills🤩 and can now drive my Cayman everyday.

Loh Boon:

I get more exposures and hands-on experience in every stage of a file or case. I am also given greater autonomy when it comes to handling the files.

Ivan:

The firm will have a more diverse and broader international client base hence you’ll be able to learn and assist with complex and challenging matters and work with well-credentialed colleagues. Not to mention, social events, well-defined trainings, and also better resources (impressive law libraries, access to continuing education, and excellent copying facilities). Furthermore, having the name of a recognizable Big Law firm on your resume is worth it.

We don’t get much chance to enjoy much out time like this. Picture of Weera & Ivan taken at NYLC Charity Night, taken by the legendary Yolanda.

Kai Shin:

In my firm, and specifically for my team, we were recently given the flexibility to work from home on Friday mornings. I think the highlight of my firm is the fact that they regularly host talks after office hours on Fridays, topics could range from Professional Image, How to value shares etc, which I think is one of the best things about my firm, they encourage growth not just in legal knowledge, but also in other non-law related areas as well.

Francis:

My allowance increases depending on how many files I closed and the progress reports from the HR… And we get to keep our commissions from the files we bring in.

MAJOR PERK- claims before 3pm usually reimbursed the same day…. And always get to go back on time 9.30 to 5.30 pm sharp… No WEEKENDS.

Lawyers sometimes don’t realise its weekend already.

Question 3: What type of work are you exposed to? What are the opportunities and tasks that you are expected to complete?

Kai Shin:

Given the fact my firm only undertakes commercial and civil litigation work, like many of you I am mainly responsible for the groundwork of each case i.e drafting, attending CMs etc. I am also in charge of the firm’s Saturday legal clinic, so I am constantly learning in that sense.

Weera’s favourite past time after work with Kai Shin. Alcohol Ice Cream brings people together.

Shammie:

The practice group I am in is Debt Capital Market and Structured Finance and throughout my pupillage, the bulk of my work come from this practice group. I was involved in the Eco World International Bhd issuance of sukuk murabahah worth RM180.0 million from commencement till completion. The work that I was exposed to includes conducting legal due diligence, drafting Programme Agreement, Trust Deed and the necessary Islamic Documents, assisting in the drafting of the Information Memorandum and attended the verification meeting with a Senior Partner and a Senior Associate. I was also given the opportunity to assist a partner in legal research and drafting for publication purposes.

Sometimes we are also tasked to do menial work like transcribing hours of minutes, translating pages and pages of documents and bundling but I guess that is part and parcel of being a pupil.

Ivan:

My day to day grind would involve being inundated with legal research, case managements, attend arbitrations, drafting letters, written submissions, opinions, S&P agreements, due diligence, probate matters, compiling bundle of authorities, attend meetings, checking NOEs, translation, printing, file searches, Trademark searches, calling government offices etc. Regardless of what’s your area of practice, in Big Law Firms, you’ll be asked to do some writing and research. You’ll be expected to treat all seniors as clients, and therefore they’ll assume that all requested work product is final. Therefore, it is imperative that everything you write be error free, check the grammar, spelling, citations, etc.

Weera:

I’m exposed to “rojak” kind of areas. 90% general litigation works, the rest include IP, a very little bit of conveyancing. All my criminal matters are handled through the Dock Brief programme. As such, I would say I have learnt a a lot during my 9 months of pupilage. I’m usually expected to do works such as drafting of Affidavits, Notice of Application, summons in Chambers, submissions, letters, occasional despatch, translations, research work, heavy liasing with PKP and court officers.

The slightly busy scene at my room.

Francis:

The first 2 months did only litigation. But the firms composition is that 2 clerks handle banking documents, 1 clerk doing SNP and 1 HR staff doing accounts and all…

My workload started when the SNP clerk resigned so i took over almost 40 files at once… It was hard at first, but Had to be very quick to analyse and go from there…. (i had no help in analysing the documents as all the other clerks handle different documents) the work ranges from Applying Low Cost Consents, Consent, Redemption Documents, and note to self LHDN and LAND REGISTRY offices are your best friend (be ready to be glued to the phone…. It takes a lot of waiting before u can even talk to the officer in charge) the list piles on. But in time, I slowly pieced it all together and now to a stage where I can complete them with one eye closed (haha).

My boss allowed me to attend client signing for the majority of the new files, so that was fun BUT REMEMBER never promise anything to the client and make sure YOU have knowledge on the file as the documents may vary depending on loans, refinancing, top up, as well as collaterals…

Daphne:

The types of work that I have been given for the past 7 months can be summarised as follows:-

Written Submissions
Documents to comply with Pre-Trial Directions
Witness statements
Interlocutory applications
Winding-up Petitions and Proof of Debts
Letters
Research
Translation
Lugging Documents to Court
Despatch duties (only during extremely urgent circumstances)
Calling every single government department you can think of (exaggeration but you get the gist)

Apart from drafting cause papers, the opportunity I find truly precious is watching my master cross-examine and conducts hearings. It is truly fascinating to see how he picks up the tiniest bit of information that the rest of us miss and uses it to our advantage and how his thought processes are 10 steps ahead of the opponent. It drives my passion.

Loh Boon:

My daily tasks are the basic yet comprehensive ones, such as drafting letters, drafting cause papers, doing research, attending case managements and hearings on my own (only applicable to Courts which I have the locus to appear) or assisting my boss if he attends to the same, liaising with Court officers and following my master to client meetings. Let’s not forget that we do not have any support staff in our firm. Therefore, other than the legal works mentioned above, I will also have to assist in the daily administration (a.k.a the ground works) of the firm.

Question 4: What is your advice to new and young budding pupils?

Kai Shin:

Take your time and don’t rush – I think we all understand that kind pressure from our parents and friends all too well. Those ‘you should quickly start pupillage and stop wasting time’ talks can be somewhat demotivating at times. But on behalf of my learned colleagues here at BrainyLaw, we implore you to take as much time (as long as it is justified) as you need to explore all available options and decide. Never rush and jump onto an offer just because someone tells you that you should. FYI, I took 6 months off, and that gave me a clearer (somewhat) direction as to what I expect and want out of my 9 months of pupillage.

Drop the foolish pride – I’ve been there, many times. And it is safe to say that this ‘pride’ does more damage than good to you. Don’t get me wrong, it is good to be confident, but it is also alright to not know things, which is precisely why we are all ‘Pupils’ at this stage. So don’t beat yourself up too much if you don’t know something. But make an effort to ask and to find out, and learn.

Ivan:

Be flexible – be willing to take on assignments in practice areas outside your team’s practice. I took on assignments outside litigation and it was not in vain as it gave me skills, such as conducting due diligence and drafting, that are easily transferable to the transactional realm.

Enhance your visibility – Big Law Firms, you will be in a sea of lawyers / pupils. Let people at the firm know who you are. Avoid the desire to hunker down and lay low. When going to firm events, show your unique personality and have your name out there and your presence known.

Working with smart and powerful people requires a certain amount of grace and calibration. It’s important to stay humble at all times and use the right time to show your strength and composure. A good book that I’ll highly recommend to read before starting your pupillage is “How to Win Friends & Influence People – Dale Carnegie”

Pace yourself – In the first few months, the adrenaline rush is still fresh hence you’ll try to take on as many assignments on your plate. Then, the stress builds up, the workload increases but then you realized that your quality of work decreases. That’ll be the moment when you’ll be forced to learn how to prioritize your responsibilities.

Don’t ignore your physical and mental health (badan cergas otak cerdas) – I’d recommend developing a daily workout routine and healthy meal plan. Always hit the gym in the morning, because work can be so unpredictable that you’ll almost never get a chance to go if you plan it after work. If you have to wake up early to do this, so be it. But believe me that making this investment in the morning, you’ll feel better and ultimately more productive for the day. Ask yourself, what would Harvey Spectre do?

Last but not least, you’re about to embark on a journey that can be exciting, yet nerve-wrecking at the same time. My advice to you is pray that you’ll be assigned to a good Master and seniors who can make the job fulfilling and enjoyable. Then do your best and leave it to God to do the rest!

Weera: Or you can just find Ivan / Mike Ross to do the ground work for you.

Shammie:

Learn to take responsibility for your work. For every piece of work given to you, you have to take responsibility for everything. No matter how brilliant you are, you will inevitably make a mistake. You will mess up. You will make a typo. You will send the wrong email to the client. The worst thing you can do is make excuses or put the blame on other people. You should accept complete responsibility for your mistakes and going forward, figure out how to prevent that mistake from happening again.

Goh Loh Boon:

First advice: Don’t rush. PLEASE.
It’s very important to find out what you want, what you are comfortable with and it’s completely fine to take your time to do your research. Everyone has their own pace and you are allowed to take your time.

Second advice: Feel comfortable
It’s alright to feel comfortable while learning on how to become a lawyer. It doesn’t have to be a very toxic, painful and nerve-wracking one just because someone told you so.

Third advice: READ THIS ARTICLE! 🙂

Daphne:

I can understand if you aren’t entirely certain of the area of law you want to practise in, but being in this profession, especially, you need to do your research and see what different areas of practice entails and find you where your interests are inclined towards. If you end up in a firm that does areas of practice you truly loathe and find zero motivation in, no one is responsible for it but yourself. Ignorance is not a defence.

When you attend interviews, ASK QUESTIONS. Find out what are the areas the firm does, the kinds of work that pupils are allowed and asked to do on a daily basis, what is expected of a pupil, how hands on are on you each file etc. Salary is a factor of consideration definitely, but that’s not all.

Pupillage is the only 9 months in your journey in this profession where people ~
might cut you some slack and be more than willing to point you in the right direction and show you the ropes, but after this 9 months, you will be expected to know something, and it’s on YOURSELF if you are poorly equipped.

When you’re on the job, never hesitate to clarify instructions and ask for guidance.

Be deliberately curious and inquisitive, that little piece of extra information you obtain each time will come in handy one day, even if it’s not today. Trust me 😉

Francis:

From my experience, BE VERY PICKY… The first firm you walk in sets the experience for yourself be it bad or good you would always remember the 1st firm you liased with…

GIVE IT TIME, you wanna start chambering early for what to end early is it?! SORRY TO SAY, even if you finish early how CONFIDENT are you, that you can handle the task at hand when there is no guidance given to u? Get the full experience or even some, you might be surprised of the kind of offers you will get if u do….

Last but not least, START… You owe it to yourself to chamber even if you don’t intend to pursue a career in practice.

Weera:

My short and simple advice to new law graduates looking to be a pupil is… Find a firm that looks after your back like how you would look after the firms back. That’s it.

Oh, and do remember to carry a pen wherever you go!

Congrats! You made it to the end. If you do have any questions, feel free to contact us.

Lastly, me and Kai Shin, on behalf of BrainyLaw would convey a very big thank you to all all the contributors today for helping out all the fellow budding lawyers and pupils out there for spending some time off work to contribute to this article.

A stressful profession we are in definitely, a convincing facade we portray everyday. Behind all those submissions, record of appeals, research works and written articles, lies all the noble practitioners who often went unnoticed. The least we can do is to buy them bunch of Starbucks oh yeah and give them diabetes take some time off to read their work, and greet each other in Court when our path crosses.

Till then,

Fiat Justicia Ruat Caelum.

All the contributors in this article today will be immortalized in the Roll of Honours page. BrainyLaw would once again thank all the contributors below for their efforts in sharing their experiences.

Yeoh Kai Shin of BrainyLaw and MalaysianLitigator.com, from Thomas Philip Advocates & Solicitors

Ivan Fredric Yun, from Chooi & Company + Cheang & Ariff

Francis Anthony

Shammie Wong, from Zaid Ibrahim & Co (ZICO)

Goh Loh Boon, from Tzai Mun & Co

Daphne Rethual

Myself, Weera Premananda @ Soon Jin Xue, mastermind of BrainyLaw, from the firm that had guided him from the slums, Justin Faye & Partners.

P/S: Law firms to Weera, is represented by the quote below:

Hic locus est ubi mors gaudet succurrere vitae

– This is the place where death rejoices to teach those who live

Telegram Lawyers & Pupils Support Group (Unlimited Members – 3,228 members as of 03.06.2021):

https://bit.ly/2SYx9kd (Working link is now only available on demand – Contact Weera to get link to join the group)

Update 03.06.2021 – NOTE: Due to massive and overwhelming demands (& to prevent wrong people wrong joining the group), I had changed the link to join the Telegram Lawyers and Pupils’ Support Group, and it is now only available on demand. 

To join – Kindly contact Weera to get the latest link. 

And no, the quote above is not just used in the morgue.